Rebecca Zung (@rebeccazung) has been recognized as one of the Best Lawyers in America by U.S. News and is a globally recognized expert on negotiating with narcissists, with over 35 million views on YouTube in just two years.
Rebecca created the SLAY® Negotiation Method and is the author of the upcoming book SLAY the Bully: How to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win, which features a foreword by Chris Voss. She has also written two bestselling books: Negotiate Like You M.A.T.T.E.R.: The Sure Fire Method to Step Up and Win, with a foreword by Robert Shapiro, and Breaking Free: A Step-by-Step Divorce Guide for Achieving Emotional, Physical, and Spiritual Freedom.
Rebecca is frequently called upon to provide her perspective in media outlets, including Extra, Forbes, Huffington Post, Newsweek, Time, Dr. Drew, and Ed Mylett’s Podcast.
Her podcast, Negotiate Your Best Life, is ranked in the top 0.5% of all podcasts globally.Along with In-N-Out Burger owner Lynsi Snyder Ellingson, Rebecca founded Slay Legal Aid, a 501c3 that provides legal aid to those in need.
What Travis and Rebecca discussed:
Why Consistency is Key: Rebecca explains that it took her around 10 years of consistently speaking at networking events, publishing articles, and building her brand before she reached a point where she no longer had to market her law practice actively. This shows the importance of sticking with marketing and branding efforts over the long haul rather than giving up after just a few attempts.
How to Leverage Relationships: Rebecca highlights how key relationships, like the one with her best friend who encouraged her and the woman who gave her an existing law practice, were pivotal moments that helped propel her forward.
The Reason Behind Rebecca's Pivot: After building a very successful law practice, Rebecca explains she merged it with others because she was burnt out. This shows that even when something is going well, don't be afraid to make a change if it no longer aligns with your passion and purpose.
Why Negotiating with a Narcissist is Challenging: Rebecca explains that narcissists see things as black and white, and their goal is often not just to win but to make the other person lose. She notes that trying to negotiate with a narcissist rationally typically doesn't work because they are focused on their own self-interest and "narcissistic supply." Rebecca suggests figuring out what matters most to the narcissist and using that as leverage when negotiating.
How to Turn Setbacks into Opportunities: When a business partnership went south, Rebecca used it as motivation to double down on her strengths. She refined her negotiation program, embraced online marketing, and ultimately built a thriving business that allowed her to make a bigger impact.
If you want to learn tactical strategies for achieving your biggest goals, listen to this podcast episode featuring lawyer-turned-entrepreneur Rebecca Zung. You'll discover how her grit and ability to turn setbacks into opportunities ultimately led to the thriving business she has today.
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Transcript
0 (1s): This episode is brought to you by Tools and Weapons, a podcast hosted by Microsoft Vice Chair and President Brad Smith. In it, global Leaders discuss the promise and peril of the digital age, from environmental sustainability and cybersecurity to ethical ai. Guests like journalist Kara Swisher and Microsoft c e o, Satya Nadella share lessons from their past to reframe some of society's toughest challenges and seek new solutions, follow tools and weapons with Brad Smith on Spotify. Now.
Rebecca Zung (30s): So for a Narcissist, you're either for them or against them. It's all black and white. When you go to Negotiate with them, you are not dealing with a person who's rational. You are not dealing with a person who's reasonable because You know you're sitting there. You're thinking, well, we all want to get to a rational conclusion here. That's not how they think. They will take themselves down to take you down.
Travis Chappell (56s): Welcome, back to the show. I'm Travis Chappell . And I believe that if you can connect with the best, you can become the best So. after creating 800 podcast episodes about building your network, I've come to realize that networking is really just making friends if you doing it the right way. Anyway, join me as I. make friends with world class athletes like Shaquille, Neal, entertainers like Rob, Dyrdeck authors like Dr, Nicole, Lappera, former presidents like Vicente Fox, or even the occasional FBI hostage negotiator, billionaire, real estate mogul, or polarizing political figures. So. if you want to make more friends that help you become a better version of yourself, then subscribe to the show and keep on listening 'cause this is Travis Makes Friends. Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Travis Makes Friends podcast.
Travis Chappell (1m 38s): Today I am making friends with REBECCA ZUNG, how are you?
Rebecca Zung (1m 42s): I am great, especially since I get to talk to you.
Travis Chappell (1m 45s): Yeah, we're here making it happen in Santa Monica, which I could think of worse places to, to do a podcast together. That's right.
Rebecca Zung (1m 53s): Sun is shining today,
Travis Chappell (1m 54s): So it's, and you live some warm and you live around here, right? I
Rebecca Zung (1m 57s): Do. I live in Manhattan Beach.
Travis Chappell (1m 58s): Manhattan Beach. That's one of my favorites. That's one of my favorites. I grew up in SoCal, but I'm in Vegas now. But whenever we'd go to the beach growing up, it was like I always, I always wanted to be in Manhattan for
Rebecca Zung (2m 8s): Sure. Yeah, it's beautiful.
Travis Chappell (2m 9s): Now, I know that there's a bunch of things that we're gonna end up talking about here today and, and a couple things that I want to talk to you about specifically. But before we do that, I want to build a little bit of context for anybody that is watching or listening right now who may not know who you are. So let's rewind the clock. REBECCA. Let's go back to, let's say 10 years old. 10. So take us back, set the scene. Where in the world are you? What's life like for REBECCA at 10?
Rebecca Zung (2m 37s): Oh, 10 years old was, that was a rough time for me. Okay. Actually, I was in McLean, Virginia. I was a little half Chinese girl who was I think, feeling kind of voiceless. Hmm. At that time, I was feeling very different than everybody else. I had had a couple of friends, but I was feeling very different than everyone else. And I was bullied for being Asian. Okay.
Rebecca Zung (3m 18s): And You know there was nobody else that was half Asian. My middle name is Yukon You. know everybody else had a middle name like Marie. Yeah. Or Anne. Ann. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And even though it McLean Virginia is actually a suburb of Washington DC it just was very different. Yeah. So
Travis Chappell (3m 43s): What did your parents do?
Rebecca Zung (3m 44s): My dad's a physician. He's an anesthesiologist. He was in Washington. And my mom had been an operating room nurse German. Oh wow. Okay. Yeah. So I'm half Chinese and half German, which means I have no fun genes whatsoever.
Travis Chappell (3m 59s): I, I don't know. It seems like you have some fun. It's
Rebecca Zung (4m 1s): Very You know, organized and Yeah. You know. But it, it was, it was a difficult time. I feel like I didn't come into my own until I was a little older than that. So 10 years old. That was a rough time for me.
Travis Chappell (4m 16s): Was there anything that you took solace in? Anything that gave you a sense of self or fortitude at the, at the time? Like an activity or school or You know sports or anything else like that?
Rebecca Zung (4m 31s): I had a lot of cousins. My, my one cousin said that when my dad and his siblings came over from China, they recreated the clan of the way the Chinese people You know were in back in China was that they would all kind of live in a, a You know the families would get married, but they would, they would all stay close to each other. And cousins were like siblings. You know. Well, obvi, obviously, we didn't live in the same house, but I was very close to all of my cousins. I still am. Okay. So my cousins are like siblings. Yeah. And they're all half also.
Rebecca Zung (5m 12s): Okay. Interestingly enough, all of my dad's brothers married You know wom women from the United States. Yeah. You know who are white and I
Travis Chappell (5m 24s): People You had something in common with Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (5m 26s): So I think, but You know, I, I interestingly, I would go to Chinese school on Saturday mornings to take Mandarin lessons and they were all Chinese. So I didn't fit in there either. Yeah. You know. Right. And I think You know, being with my cousins, I felt normal there. Yeah. I think maybe that gave me solace.
Travis Chappell (5m 50s): Did you take to school, did you enjoy school or
Rebecca Zung (5m 53s): School? Only later. Okay. Only later.
Travis Chappell (5m 56s): So, so let's, let's move into that part then. So you You know this, this time in your life isn't a great time. But then you said you kind of started coming to your own a little bit later than that. So at what point did you start feeling like You know, I guess more confident or, or secure or more like you were fitting in?
Rebecca Zung (6m 15s): I mean, I did, I was in this gifted program as a child, but it didn't mean anything to me. I didn't know what that really was. It didn't mean anything to me at that time. I feel I really felt voiceless as a child. I really did. I think it wasn't until high school maybe. Okay. That things started to shift for me. I definitely excelled in high school. I went to a boarding school for high school.
Travis Chappell (6m 49s): Oh really? Like this all girls. It
Rebecca Zung (6m 51s): Was an all girls boarding school.
Travis Chappell (6m 53s): Was there a reason for that?
Rebecca Zung (6m 55s): I don't know. My mom decided that that was what I was gonna do.
Travis Chappell (6m 59s): Any of like, your cousins do the same? Was this like a cultural thing? No. Your mom was just like, Nope, this is just you. My,
Rebecca Zung (7m 4s): It was just me, my mom, my brother and I did that. And one of my other cousins did. But I don't know. So
Travis Chappell (7m 9s): Your brother went to an all boys boarding school and you went to all girls boarding school. How was that experience?
Rebecca Zung (7m 14s): I definitely excelled there. And I also started to get attention for You know what I looked like at that time. My, my dad's best friend was a movie producer and he was friends with Eileen Ford. The Ford Modeling Agency was a big thing at the time. And You know he was going to get me You know into that. And So I did. I did this modeling portfolio and I was planning to become a model. And my, but my dad, once he found out about that, he completely shut that down.
Rebecca Zung (7m 59s): I mean, that was really not happening. Oh no. My dad had gone to Columbia. I
Travis Chappell (8m 4s): Was gonna say
Rebecca Zung (8m 5s): Undergrad and medical school and that was he, I was gonna be a pro professional.
Travis Chappell (8m 10s): Yeah. That was not happening. Seemingly education was a very large factor in your family. I'm sure that
Rebecca Zung (8m 16s): Was not happening. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My oldest cousin had already, the first of us had gotten into Princeton. And when that happened,
Travis Chappell (8m 25s): Set the standard. Huh? That was
Rebecca Zung (8m 28s): David was, David was going to Princeton.
Travis Chappell (8m 30s): No pressure. Yeah. Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (8m 32s): I always tell David, I'm like, thanks a lot. Yeah.
Travis Chappell (8m 35s): Thank you David. Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (8m 37s): Yeah. So, no, that was not happening. But that You know, I think I started to gain confidence in high school just because I, I excelled academically, but then, I don't know, I still never really felt, I, I always felt like an imposter or I always felt
Travis Chappell (8m 55s): Like you didn't belong.
Rebecca Zung (8m 56s): Yeah. And then I got married at 19 the first time. Oh wow. I dropped out of college, got married at 19 the first time. And I had three kids by the time I was 22.
Travis Chappell (9m 4s): Oh my gosh. I'm sure your parents were thrilled about that. Thrilled.
Rebecca Zung (9m 6s): Yeah. That was my version of rebellion.
Travis Chappell (9m 9s): It probably worked, it probably got rise out them, I'm sure. Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (9m 13s): Yeah. Got divorced
Travis Chappell (9m 15s): How soon after
Rebecca Zung (9m 16s): They were, my kids were little.
Travis Chappell (9m 18s): Okay. Where did you meet this guy?
Rebecca Zung (9m 20s): He was one of the town boys at, when I was in high school. I was a senior in high school.
Travis Chappell (9m 26s): Okay. So you knew him for a while then? I
Rebecca Zung (9m 28s): Was a senior in high. I met him like February, right before I graduated. And I, You know, had started college, but then I dropped outta college. You know. I don't know, I think I just was tired of
Travis Chappell (9m 51s): What, what college? So you obviously went to college close to home.
Rebecca Zung (9m 54s): I had started, I had gotten into colleges in Virginia where, which the colleges in Virginia I had gotten into were very good You know. I mean, Virginia has really good schools, but I didn't wanna go there. I wanted to just not be having my life be run by my father, which I love. I actually was really close to my dad, but
Travis Chappell (10m 18s): Yeah. Sure. I I mean that brings up a really good point though, as a parent, is that you can't force things onto your kids. You just kind of support what they want to do. Right.
Rebecca Zung (10m 29s): Yeah. I just, I didn't want my life to be run by him Yeah. Anymore.
Travis Chappell (10m 34s): Well, and it shouldn't be.
Rebecca Zung (10m 35s): Yeah.
Travis Chappell (10m 35s): Right. I mean that's
Rebecca Zung (10m 36s): At the time, ultimately You know, I was in boarding school and everything was very regimented there. And then my father wanted me to go to U V A or William and Mary or one of those state schools. Yeah. And I just didn't want that. And So I ended up going to Catholic University of America, which was in like, basically right next to his hospital. Okay. And I was just, didn't really wanna go there either. Yeah. And
Travis Chappell (11m 7s): So you stopped
Rebecca Zung (11m 8s): So. I stopped.
Travis Chappell (11m 10s): So what happened after that? Then I
Rebecca Zung (11m 12s): Got married because, because to me it was like the only way out,
Travis Chappell (11m 17s): Out from under your dad's thumb kind of. Okay. Which is not the best reason to get married. Probably was
Rebecca Zung (11m 25s): Not. No. Which I found out.
Travis Chappell (11m 29s): Sounds like you found out pretty quickly though. Yeah. Didn't waste too much time on that. Yeah. What are your, what are your like biggest takeaways from that time period?
Rebecca Zung (11m 37s): Well, You know, I think we all have our own little path, right? I mean, I kind of realized very quickly, wow, this is not the greatest path either. You know I had these little kids and this was not it either You know I needed to do something. Yeah. So now I'm like in this hole here.
Travis Chappell (11m 58s): Well, now it's more difficult to do something when you have three
Rebecca Zung (12m 1s): Kids. Right. Three kids and no money.
Travis Chappell (12m 3s): Three kids under five.
Rebecca Zung (12m 4s): Three kids under five no money. This marriage is not the greatest. Had to finish college, which I did and You know. So
Travis Chappell (12m 13s): What, what did you get your degree in?
Rebecca Zung (12m 14s): It was just in education. You know I was, I wanted to Okay. So I ended up teaching You know elementary school for a little while. Okay. But You know, I just, I was like, this is not my life. Yeah. You know this is not what I'm gonna be doing. Yeah. So we moved to Florida and I ended up applying to University of Miami. They had a night program at that point and got divorced. I'm still in my twenties at this point. Yeah. Yeah. And my mom was living in Florida. My parents got divorced. Okay. And I, she was, so she was in Fort Lauderdale.
Rebecca Zung (12m 54s): And so we were living there and I decided to apply to University of Miami, which they had a night program. So I did that. And I did have a good relationship with my ex-husband. You know he's not a bad guy. He nice guy. He just wasn't for me. We just Sure. Completely outgrew each other. Well
Travis Chappell (13m 12s): That's what happens when you get married at 19. Exactly. You know. Like, it is so weird. 'cause you don't even know who you are. No. At 19. So it's difficult to stay with somebody when you're both trying to get to know who each other are. But you're changing everything about yourself. Correct. All the time. Exactly. It's like, it's really difficult to keep up with that
Rebecca Zung (13m 31s): Completely. And So I went back to law school, got my degree and met my husband there actually. So we've been married for 23 years. Wow.
Travis Chappell (13m 47s): Okay.
Rebecca Zung (13m 48s): And we have a 21 year old daughter together.
Travis Chappell (13m 50s): Awesome. And
Rebecca Zung (13m 53s): I You know, it was a crazy time in my life, actually. You know, but I
Travis Chappell (13m 59s): Why, why do you say that?
Rebecca Zung (14m 0s): Well, because I was going to law school at night. I had three little kids. I was You know, it was wild You know I was still in my twenties. And yeah. It was crazy. But I did it. Yeah. And graduated with honors. I was in law review and I met the people that I ended up working for, which they had the top family law practice in Florida at the time. And that's how I ended up doing family law, which You know I hadn't really decided that I wanted to do, but that's You know, it sort of found me. Sure. Yeah. The woman who was the superstar happened to be half Chinese.
Rebecca Zung (14m 44s): I went to this dinner. So my husband was a year ahead of me in school, at law school. Okay. And he had graduated already and I was still in law school. And we went to this dinner. My husband was a prosecutor, so we went to this prosecutor's dinner and the judge that he was appearing in front of all the time was married to that family law attorney. Oh, interesting. Okay. So we sat down with them. That family law attorney was, her name was Victoria Ho. And I said, is ho a Chinese name? And she said, yeah. She turned out to be half Chinese. Turned out she had two boys and a girl from her first marriage.
Rebecca Zung (15m 25s): Oh really? Her dad had been a anesthesiologist. Her mom had been a operating room nurse. Her, it was like, her life was my life, but she was like 15 years older than me. Wow. And like it was insanity.
Travis Chappell (15m 40s): Yeah. No kidding. That many parallels is crazy.
Rebecca Zung (15m 43s): Crazy. So she ended up hiring me while I was still in law school. And that's how I ended up on this path. It was completely a God thing. Yeah.
Travis Chappell (15m 54s): Right. So at what point along the journey did you decide to start, I guess focusing on the Negotiation angle?
Rebecca Zung (16m 3s): A good question. Actually. You know, at one point I decided to start my own practice. And to build a practice as a lawyer, you have to go out and do speaking engagements. And nobody wants to hear about Divorce. You know as you're speaking, right.
Travis Chappell (16m 25s): As your platform. Yeah, yeah.
Rebecca Zung (16m 26s): As your platform. So I decided I would develop a talk on Negotiation. Okay. I was doing high net worth Divorce. High net worth Divorce is a very specialized area of Divorce. You have to know about trust, law, business law, tax law, You know. Very, it's a very complicated area.
Travis Chappell (16m 53s): I'm sure they get really intricate really quickly. Yes. When you have to divide up real assets,
Rebecca Zung (16m 58s): Very, very complicated assets. Yeah. So, and the Negotiation aspect of it is very, very complicated as well. You know you're dealing with the most important types of assets for people. You know their money, their business, their children
Travis Chappell (17m 18s): In a very emotional time. Right.
Rebecca Zung (17m 20s): As well. And I only ever represented billionaires, celebrities, You know, high, high because I, my practice was in Naples, Florida, which was very affluent community. Yeah. And I decided I'm gonna develop a talk on Negotiation. So that's how I built my practice. Hmm. I always say that I spoke on Negotiation, every rotary from Sarasota to Marco Island and every Hadassa group and every women league league of women's voters, whatever. That's how I built my practice. Yeah. And You know, I ended up having the top family law practice and You know I best Lawyers in America by U US News many years in a row now.
Rebecca Zung (18m 9s): Yeah. And You know a lot of accolades. So by the end, I mean, I don't practice law anymore, but it by the end, I never had to step outside of my office to network anymore. Sure. But that's how I built my practice.
Travis Chappell (18m 26s): How long did you do that for, do you think? Just like constantly speaking, going out to things. Oh,
Rebecca Zung (18m 34s): 10 years probably. Maybe You know. Love it. Grinding it.
Travis Chappell (18m 37s): Yeah. That's what I wanna pull that, bring that to the forefront, because it's something that we've been kind of talking a little bit about on the show lately, is there's so many people that want You know certain results, and then they always base their decisions off of too small, of a sample size before they see any results actually happen. You know what I mean? So they'll, they, they think they, they maybe have that thought where it's like, You know what, maybe I'll go build my practice by speaking at Rotaries about Negotiation and they do four talks in six months. And then they go, well that didn't work You know what I mean? No. And it's like, well, hang on a second. You know what I mean? We haven't given this enough of a, a sampling to see if this is gonna work at all You know what I mean?
Travis Chappell (19m 23s): You can't, you can't put out a hundred flyers for your You know real estate practice. And then when you get no calls, just be like, well, I guess people just don't, it's the economy. You know people just don't wanna buy Right now. It's, well maybe try putting out like 50,000 flyers and see if you get some responses on that You know, and then then start testing the messaging on there. Maybe start writing some different copy and maybe get a different looking flyer and then test that one out and then do it again, and then repeat that process and then do it over and over and over again for years. And then you get to a point where you were, where you're saying like, we built the number one family practice para family law practice. And I no longer had to do that because people were coming to me all the time and I solidified myself as like the authority or the expert on this particular topic and ended up doing pretty well for you.
Rebecca Zung (20m 9s): Oh yeah. I mean, I used to have a, a marketing plan and it was, how many talks am I doing this month? How many articles am I publishing? How many You know? And I would ha actually have a box for each month on You know filling that in. Mm. You know So I. I, and I knew that I would have to fill in that, that box You know am am I what, where am I speaking? Where am IPU publishing an article? Where am I gonna be You know? And, and I knew that I have to have, have that filled in
Travis Chappell (20m 41s): Around what year was this? Were you or, or I guess years or range where you started speaking and ended speaking? Like when were you doing a bunch of this?
Rebecca Zung (20m 49s): 2007, 8, 9, 10. Okay. 1112.
Travis Chappell (20m 55s): Which really sets you up pretty perfectly for doing what you do now. Oh yeah. 'cause like you're basically just developing content the whole time and then now you just have different distribution.
Rebecca Zung (21m 5s): I mean, at one point for many years, I, I landed a column in the Naples Daily News that was You know, like I was so thrilled when I was able to land a column in the regular column in the Naples Daily News. Sure. Yeah.
Travis Chappell (21m 19s): You know. Well in a community like that, it's a really big deal. It
Rebecca Zung (21m 22s): Was a big deal for
Travis Chappell (21m 23s): Me. Brings a lot of authority and credibility.
Rebecca Zung (21m 25s): Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And then, and, and at one point I was, I even had a regular spot on their, like the, their version of like the today, the Today Show You know their, their morning show where I would go regularly and go speak there. And, and that was how I ended up being able to finally do things like Extra You know the, the National Television Show. Yeah. Yeah. And so Extra used to call me when divorces would break and You know Brad and Angelina come You know, speak to that. Or when Miley got divorced, I I spoke on that. Or Tom and, and Katie got divorced. So I spoke on that You know that sort of thing.
Rebecca Zung (22m 6s): Yeah. Yeah. So I ended up doing that for national shows too.
Travis Chappell (22m 10s): Yeah. This is one area, not to get too deep in the weeds on the Negotiation stuff quite yet, but this is one area that I think a lot of people skip over in negotiations is, and maybe you can just give us a couple of of thoughts about, this is leading up to the Negotiation, like putting yourself in a position to be able to succeed. Right. Which is exactly what you're doing by gaining all of this credibility, this authority. 'cause by the time you're sitting down with somebody, you already come to the table with more power because of who you are, because of the brand that you've built, because of the recognition, because you're on national television, regional local television. You have an art, you have a column in the local paper, all these other things that they, they, they're stacking up to where when you sit down, it's no longer like zero zero.
Travis Chappell (22m 52s): You're already coming to the table with a little bit of an edge and an advantage is there, do you, do you work with a lot of people on, I guess, perception tactics? That sounds kind of slimy when I say it like that, but, but I
Rebecca Zung (23m 3s): Think You know. Oh, well, yeah. You and you alone define your value. I You know. I actually, we, we were just, Jason and I were kind of just having this conversation before you came in. But I will tell you a story. And, and this is part of what I teach with my SLAY methodology, which SLAY stands for strategy, Leverage anticipate. And you, but the you is, you and You know your mindset. Your You know. You have to believe that you can win. Hmm. You know you a hundred percent. you do. A lot of times people say, can you find me a good lawyer?
Rebecca Zung (23m 44s): I just need a good lawyer. I You know whatever. Even that is giving away your power. Hmm. You know, you have to believe you, you can win. And so I'll tell you an interesting story. I had been practicing law for about eight years, then I had gone to be a financial advisor with Morgan Stanley for two years. Okay. And I had my series seven, my 66, and I thought it would be like an easier lifestyle with my daughter. She was younger at the time. It definitely wasn't You know.
Travis Chappell (24m 19s): Lesson learned. Yes,
Rebecca Zung (24m 20s): Exactly. So then I had a friend who was leaving town and she's, she was like, oh, I'm gonna give you my law practice. She had a dozen clients. And she said, You know you can have them if you wanna start a law practice. And I thought, okay, well no one's ever gonna be dropping a law practice in my lab ever again. So let me Yeah. You know. I
Travis Chappell (24m 39s): Think this is an opportunity. Yeah,
Rebecca Zung (24m 40s): Yeah. So I'll take it. So I decided to start my law practice that at that time, and at the time I hired a business coach who was helping me. And I, I, I remember saying to her, oh my God, the people of Naples, Florida are gonna think I am such a flake, You know she was a lawyer and then she was a financial advisor, and now she's went back to being a lawyer. And You know, it's, it's a smallish sort of town and it's also very affluent. And I just felt like I was gonna be really judged You know, like, this girl does not know what she wants, You know.
Rebecca Zung (25m 26s): And I really was very concerned about the perception. And my business coach said to me, something I never forgot. And she said, people will think what you tell them to think. She said, you can tell them to think that you're a flake or you can tell them to think that you are the only attorney in town that has a financial background. Hmm. So you are actually more qualified than any other family law attorney in town.
Travis Chappell (26m 4s): Perceptive coach.
Rebecca Zung (26m 6s): So which story would you like to tell? Yeah.
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Travis Chappell (26m 53s): What's interesting is just in that one answer that you just gave, there's at least two really key relationships. There's one person that gives you a law practice, trusted you enough, liked you enough, knew you enough as a person to hand over the keys to a law practice. And then another person who was a coach, a mentor, You know figure in your life, who helped you step into becoming the person that was capable of taking this and turning it into what it became. What other relationships were really important or valuable for you at that time?
Rebecca Zung (27m 33s): Oh, I'm gonna tell you another one that was so valuable to me at the time, my best friend, who's still my best friend, my girlfriend Carolyn Cedar Quist. I remember saying to her, what if I finish up Jill's clients and I never get another one of my own?
Travis Chappell (27m 57s): Oh man. And what and what did she say?
Rebecca Zung (28m 0s): She said, that is not gonna be your problem. She said, your problem is gonna be that you're gonna have too many. Yeah. She said, that is ridiculous.
Travis Chappell (28m 10s): And I'm assuming she was right. She
Rebecca Zung (28m 12s): Was a hundred percent right.
Travis Chappell (28m 14s): Oh, man. How did you guys meet
Rebecca Zung (28m 16s): Carolyn? I met her back. The kids were in kindergarten, I think. Oh really? Yeah.
Travis Chappell (28m 23s): Okay. So you met because of your kids? Yes. And they're, they
Rebecca Zung (28m 26s): Were classmates or something. They're now gonna be seniors in college. You know. Yeah. But she is basically my sister and she's been my biggest champion and my best friend. I, I can gonna cry, like literally, I, I have the best, best friend on the planet.
Travis Chappell (28m 43s): That's awesome. And now she, does she still live in Florida?
Rebecca Zung (28m 46s): She is. Okay. She's a doctor.
Travis Chappell (28m 48s): Okay. So when you moved out here, it was probably a pretty big deal.
Rebecca Zung (28m 51s): Yeah. It's, but hasn't changed our relationship at all.
Travis Chappell (28m 54s): That's great. Yeah. That's awesome. What made you move out here?
Rebecca Zung (28m 56s): My husband wanted to move out here, but You know it was the best thing for me because it gave me an opportunity to get away from my practice, which,
Travis Chappell (29m 5s): So like reinvent yourself?
Rebecca Zung (29m 6s): Yeah. Which is what I've been able to do. Yeah. And, but
Travis Chappell (29m 10s): Very successfully at my dad.
Rebecca Zung (29m 12s): Yeah. However, You know, I'm, I merged my practice with those two other guys because my practice had just been eating me alive. Hmm. And I really wanted to do something else. Just
Travis Chappell (29m 25s): In terms of the hours you were putting in or the work wasn't fun anymore, or
Rebecca Zung (29m 31s): Yes. All of the above. Yes.
Travis Chappell (29m 32s): Yes. And yes.
Rebecca Zung (29m 33s): Yeah. I always say it built it and then it ate me. Mm. I am a creator. I love being an entrepreneur. I, I don't like the hamster wheel phase of things.
Travis Chappell (29m 44s): You know, like the operating of the business.
Rebecca Zung (29m 47s): It just was, there was no fun in it anymore. There was no creativity left in it. Yeah.
Travis Chappell (29m 53s): It was just, when it comes down to just like optimizing processes basically, it just no longer fun for you.
Rebecca Zung (30m 1s): I, it was just, I was just a highly paid bitch for 12 hours a day.
Travis Chappell (30m 6s): Well, it's better than being a poorly paid one. Right?
Rebecca Zung (30m 8s): Yeah. I guess I was just You know. I was just no fun in it anymore at all. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I wanted to create, I wanted to do things and So I had to get away from there because You know. It was just to the point that I had no time left in my day. Yeah. And it was just such a small town that it was like, people would take it personally if I didn't take their case where I didn't take their sister's case.
Travis Chappell (30m 39s): Gotcha. Gotcha.
Rebecca Zung (30m 39s): Or I didn't take their mom's case or You know.
Travis Chappell (30m 44s): Didn't feel like you could say no when
Rebecca Zung (30m 46s): You were there. No. And money was no object. Yeah. They didn't want my associates You know. Yeah.
Travis Chappell (30m 53s): They want you Right.
Rebecca Zung (30m 55s): Yeah.
Travis Chappell (30m 55s): Working on it. Right.
Rebecca Zung (30m 56s): Right. So, I just couldn't, I needed to get away from there. Sure. So I merged my practice with two other guys. And even when I moved out here, people were sending their private jets to send, to take me back there. I seriously, I like to
Travis Chappell (31m 15s): Talk about golden handcuffs.
Rebecca Zung (31m 17s): Golden handcuffs. Yeah. Yeah. To have me do their trial. I had one client sent a private jet to have me come back there to do their trial. Did you do it? I did.
Travis Chappell (31m 27s): Well, I mean, I probably would've done it too. I'm not gonna lie. That doesn't sound like a terrible case to do.
Rebecca Zung (31m 35s): And of course, yeah. I did win the, the trial. There you go. And so, but I, I thought I gotta get out of this thing. So then I ended up doing a, a business with somebody who turned out to be a Narcissist. Hmm. And it was one of the worst, most traumatic situations of my life.
Travis Chappell (31m 55s): That was after you moved here? Moved here. Okay.
Rebecca Zung (31m 58s): Brought back feelings of being bullied.
Travis Chappell (32m 0s): Sure.
Rebecca Zung (32m 1s): As a kid, It was one of the most horrible, horrible experiences. Yeah.
Travis Chappell (32m 9s): Well, I feel like narcissism, like being bullied by a Narcissist is worse than like playground bullies because they're almost more insidious with their bullying, if that makes sense. Right. Like it's more hidden behind this veneer of I care and No, I'm your friend and stuff like that. Who's
Rebecca Zung (32m 32s): A covert Narcissist. Yeah. Covert Narcissist.
Travis Chappell (32m 35s): Yeah. So what, what types of narcissism are there?
Rebecca Zung (32m 39s): Covert, grandiose, and malignant are the main kinds that you hear about the most. And I mean, there's others, but those are the ones you hear about the most.
Travis Chappell (32m 50s): And how would those be defined?
Rebecca Zung (32m 52s): Well, any kind of a Narcissist is a Narcissist. A Narcissist is a person who, I mean, there's a, there are formal definitions, but I'm gonna give you what I call the lay person's definition. It's a person who is starving for attention, desperate for, they don't feel like they have any inner sense of value. Hmm. So they, they feel like they have to get all of their sense of value from external sources. But there's a black hole inside of them, so it can never be filled. So it's almost like they're desperate for air, gasping for breath. And it can never be filled.
Rebecca Zung (33m 32s): So you might wanna fill it too, but it can never be filled. So you are left feeling totally and utter, utterly depleted, yet they're still starving. Yeah. And is it, is this it's scarcity to the utmost extreme.
Travis Chappell (33m 47s): Is this innate in people? Is it caused by something?
Rebecca Zung (33m 51s): It's caused by trauma. Okay. And what I found in my research is that, and this is what I found fascinating, fascinating, is that when we as human beings are in fight or flight, our brains emit chemicals. Right. Hormones, adrenaline, cortisol, epinephrine. Right? Yeah. And as children, when this happens on a regular basis, the brain bathes the limbic system in chemicals. Okay. And it can cause rest development to the limbic system part of the brain.
Rebecca Zung (34m 37s): When that happens as children, while the prefrontal cortex part of the brain continues to develop, which means the thinking part of the brain, that limbic system, part of the brain does not. Mm. So when they become adults and they're presented with stimuli that makes them feel like they need to go back into survival mode, that limbic system part of the brain then becomes activated again, which is sometimes referred to as narcissistic injury. Then they, it's like a switch goes on that they feel like they need to fight again.
Rebecca Zung (35m 27s): And it can cause rage. Hmm. It can cause them to act out Yeah. In ways that don't seem rational. That don't seem reasonable. And what I learned is that sometimes if they're in that rage, they don't even remember the way that they acted. They don't even know what they've done. And so it can, it's sometimes it's even referred to as narcissistic rage. And there's, that phenomenon is actually called splitting. There's a term for it because it's like a split. So for a Narcissist, you're either for them or against them.
Rebecca Zung (36m 9s): There's, it's all black and white You know. So when you go to Negotiate with them, you are not dealing with a person who's rational. You are not dealing with a person who's reasonable. Yeah. Because You know you're sitting there, you're thinking, well, we all want to get to a rational conclusion here. You know, everybody wants to You know, be have this be done. Let's not pay a lot in attorney's fees. Let's figure out how we can come to an end here. Yeah. Amicable arrangement.
Rebecca Zung (36m 50s): Right. But that's not how they think. Yeah. They, it's a zero sum game. Not only that, it's not even zero because they will take themselves down to take you down. Mm. That's the thing that doesn't even make any sense to people. They will take themselves down to take you down because they enjoy the process of making you squirm. Yeah. They enjoy the process of manipulating you because that, remember I was telling you about how they need to feed that inner feeling of no value. That's called narcissistic supply that need to, that thing that they need to fill that hole that they need to fill.
Rebecca Zung (37m 33s): They fill that with what we call supply narcissistic supply. What I have figured out though, is there's really two tiers of that. What I call diamond level supply and coal level supply and diamond level supply is how they look to the world. Big houses, prestigious friends. Sure. Money, status, that sort of status, what I call coal level supply is degrading people, controlling people, making people squirm, that sort of thing. But there's a tiering to that because when push comes to shove, they will protect and defend their, that diamond level supply at any cost.
Rebecca Zung (38m 19s): So when it comes to negotiating, the key is to figuring out how to threaten any source of supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from manipulating you or joking you around. Because when you're negotiating with them, you're, you're over there going, what is it that they want? Yeah. I'll just give it to them.
Travis Chappell (38m 44s): That's the hard part Right. Is like in a Negotiation, you're always trying to figure out what the other party wants from. Right.
Rebecca Zung (38m 49s): I'll just give it to them because then I can be done with this thing. Why aren't they just leaving me alone? Yeah. Well the problem is they enjoy that part too. Yeah. 'cause the myth is that they just wanna win. That's not all they want. They
Travis Chappell (39m 9s): Want you to lose.
Rebecca Zung (39m 10s): They not just you to lose. They want you to squirm. They want, they, it's like that kid with the pin in the earthworm.
Travis Chappell (39m 20s): Yeah. The magnifying glass and the
Rebecca Zung (39m 22s): Ants. It's enjoying seeing that earthworm like squirm. Yeah. Yeah. They like that too. So they'll, it's the game.
Travis Chappell (39m 32s): What's the difference between a sociopath or psychopath and a Narcissist?
Rebecca Zung (39m 37s): Yeah. I mean, that overlay of antisocial personality disorder is, that's like a person who would basically ruin a person's life. You know that person is a person who would not stop at anything You know. That's a person who would have no problem stalking you or You know murder you or You know accuse you of child molesting if you're not a child molester. Mm. You know. Go after you, your job. You know, a Narcissist might just be a person who has grandiose visions for themselves, who just really wants attention for themselves.
Rebecca Zung (40m 23s): Who a a a Narcissist is a person who's just in deep pain. Yeah. Who is You know. You just have to picture, it's almost like having a massive toothache and they're in just such pain that they can't see. That's why they can't see you or feel anything about you. Yeah.
Travis Chappell (40m 44s): They can't focus on anything else.
Rebecca Zung (40m 45s): Correct.
Travis Chappell (40m 46s): Yeah. Other than trying to stop that.
Rebecca Zung (40m 49s): Exactly.
Travis Chappell (40m 50s): So you've been working on writing this book that's, that's coming out soon, which everybody can actually go pre-order right now. What was the website?
Rebecca Zung (40m 58s): SLAY the Bully dot com.
Travis Chappell (40m 60s): SLAY the Bully dot com. You can go pre-order a copy and
Rebecca Zung (41m 3s): Get lots of cool bonuses. Like a masterclass and there
Travis Chappell (41m 8s): You go.
Rebecca Zung (41m 8s): Workbook. And you get access to You know, behind the scenes Cool. Stuff like private launch team and Sweet.
Travis Chappell (41m 17s): Yeah. SLAY the Bully dot com. So if you're watching or listening right now, then head over there right now before you forget and pre-order a copy of Rebecca's book. And this whole book basically details How to Negotiate with a Narcissist. Yes. And this all stemmed from the bad experience that you had Yes. Working with or partnering with a Narcissist. Yes. And you obviously had no idea that this person was a Narcissist when you got into business with them, or no. Probably would not have done that, I'm assuming. Exactly. So tell us, tell us that story.
Rebecca Zung (41m 50s): Yeah. I mean, without, I try not to do too much in detail just because You know. I don't want the backlash myself, but Sure. You know. I mean, what happens with narcissists and especially covert narcissists is You know they're very charming at the beginning.
Travis Chappell (42m 7s): I would say, what would be a covert Narcissist that would, that's just somebody that you don't know is a Narcissist or can't tell they're a Narcissist.
Rebecca Zung (42m 13s): Well, I think covert narcissists are better at hiding it. You know, grandiose narcissists tend to be the one that everybody more thinks of as a Narcissist. Okay. They are the ones that come in, they fill the room, they demand the best tables at the restaurant. They hold court when they talk.
Travis Chappell (42m 29s): There's more, obviously
Rebecca Zung (42m 31s): Narcissistic You know. They're the ones that I thought of as a Narcissist You know. I see. The more misogynistic, if they're a man, they're You know, just kind of blow hard sort of You know. Sure. They're the ones that I thought of as a Narcissist. Right. But the coverts are the ones that You know. They tend to be your humanitarians. Your everybody thinks they're so kind and wonderful. Totally. And they, they, they couch their
Travis Chappell (43m 0s): Be like a, like a pastier pastier.
Rebecca Zung (43m 4s): You see them as pastors a lot in churches, for example. They'll, they'll couch their gossip in terms of care. You know, I'm really so concerned.
Travis Chappell (43m 16s): Just worried for,
Rebecca Zung (43m 18s): I'm so worried about Susie's drinking. Yeah.
Travis Chappell (43m 23s): You know. I just, oh, why don't you talk to Susie about, it's
Rebecca Zung (43m 26s): So concerned for her You know. She's just drinking a lot more lately.
Travis Chappell (43m 32s): Yeah. Oh man, that's
Rebecca Zung (43m 36s): You know that sort of thing. Or inadvertently leaving somebody off an email chain and then a person, that person doesn't end up at the meeting. Oh, I thought, I thought I put you on that.
Travis Chappell (43m 49s): Hmm. Interesting. I didn't know how that
Rebecca Zung (43m 51s): Happened.
Travis Chappell (43m 51s): Well, if they're so good at hiding it, how do you start to tell then
Rebecca Zung (43m 55s): Things like that really start happening.
Travis Chappell (43m 59s): Well, but then if somebody did did that, they would just deny it. Right. If I was just like, have very, you left me off email chain
Rebecca Zung (44m 5s): Because you don't want me here. They have very a plausible de deniability. Yeah. I call it the clean hands. You know. They just, they're always very good at like the clean hands. Yeah. You know that things don't get back to them. And, and with the smile on their face, You know, I Oh, I, I thought I did that. I I'm sorry.
Travis Chappell (44m 24s): Yeah. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Let me add you right now. Yeah,
Rebecca Zung (44m 28s): Exactly. They're very good at just making you feel like crap. Yeah. All the time. And, and you just really don't know what's going on. And you just kind of feel sick to your stomach constantly when you're around them and you just, you always walk away just confused and not know what's going on. And, and yeah. It just, to me, covert narcissists are the worst.
Travis Chappell (44m 56s): It's the worst bunch. Yeah. Feels, it feels safer to be around a Narcissist that everybody just knows as a Narcissist. Yeah. Like you're saying the grandiose ones that Right. Demand attention and they think about themselves in this way and they're always doing, they were very verbose and loud. And everybody look at me. It's just almost like a I can, I can at least respect the straightforwardness You know.
Rebecca Zung (45m 17s): Right, right. Because with the covert, when you go to tell people about them Yeah. People will go, well that doesn't seem that Yeah. Really,
Travis Chappell (45m 25s): Really that guy. Yeah. I don't think so. Well, they
Rebecca Zung (45m 27s): They seem so nice. It's such
Travis Chappell (45m 29s): A good experience with them. Well,
Rebecca Zung (45m 30s): And you gotta tell people what they did and you, and they go, well, that must've been inadvertent. Yeah.
Travis Chappell (45m 37s): Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (45m 37s): You know. I mean Yeah.
Travis Chappell (45m 39s): It can be really damaging. Right.
Rebecca Zung (45m 41s): And
Travis Chappell (45m 41s): Make you feel like you're going crazy a little bit
Rebecca Zung (45m 42s): And they make you feel like you're going crazy. Like,
Travis Chappell (45m 44s): Wait, am I the only one that sees what's happening here? Right. Yeah. Am I, am I literally losing my mind?
Rebecca Zung (45m 49s): Right. You know. They'll ask you You know if, if if they can pick something up for you at the store and then they get back and they didn't get it and Hmm. You know, and then it happens on a regular basis and then you go to tell people and, and it's just so, it, it's death by a thousand cuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With them. Right. You know
Travis Chappell (46m 9s): If somebody's listening right now and they're kind of thinking, I think I, I think I kind of have some of these tendencies. Right. Like, how, how do you start working through that? If you are a Narcissist and you feel like you don't want to be that way, but you feel like you don't really have much control over it and you find yourself excusing, You know things that you're doing when you objectively would look at them and go, if somebody did that to me, I wouldn't allow it. But I do it to other people and I don't like that about myself and I wanna change that about me. Like, how, I guess the, if Narciss system is caused by some sort of other You know third party thing or a trauma traumatic event that happened, what can you do to start trying to overcome that?
Travis Chappell (46m 50s): Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (46m 50s): Well, I mean, it's just, it's definitely a self-worth issue. Yeah. I mean, so for self-worth issues, what can you do? You know you, you need to change your neural patterns. You need to change who and, and having more confidence in yourself, having more feelings of value about yourself and starting to realize who you are and understanding that you have power and that you, you don't, you can be more authentically yourself and starting to not hide behind the shame. Yeah. You know. I mean, the, the thing about narcissists is they feel like they have to manipulate things all the time.
Rebecca Zung (47m 34s): They feel like they have to lie. Yeah. And, and they lie about things that aren't even,
Travis Chappell (47m 39s): That are just trivial.
Rebecca Zung (47m 40s): Yeah. Yeah. They don't need to lie about Sure. You know. So start being authentically who you are. Yeah. Start showing up as a real person.
Travis Chappell (47m 50s): Do you, do you see it being possible for a lot of that to happen? Do if, if you're kinda giving advice or you're You know writing a chapter in this book and somebody's asking that, they're like, oh yeah, You know this person in my life. You know they're really close to me and I've had them in my life for a long time and I'm just now realizing that they are narcissistic completely and they drain energy from me and all of the people around them. You know what I mean? What would your advice be to somebody who's realizing that? Is it something that, that they can help move forward or move past? Or is it more like a Narcissist a Narcissist and they're always gonna be like that? Don't try to change them. It's not gonna work.
Rebecca Zung (48m 26s): Well, I mean, I, I always have the four F's. Right. Forget about calling them a Narcissist. Forget about trying to get them to see your side. Forget about getting them to acknowledge anything that you've ever done. Hmm. And forget about getting them to get, give you closure because they're not going to do any of those things. Hmm. You know. And it, any of that is just gonna cause you more pain and it's wasted effort and energy. So I always say step one, don't run. Step two, make a U-turn. Step three, break free. And You know it's all part, it's all within the SLAY methodology, which is strategy Leverage anticipate.
Rebecca Zung (49m 11s): And you, and, but I just, I came up with this step one, don't run Step two, make a U-turn, step three break free. 'cause it was more like baby steps with kind of course correcting and making a full on U-turn. And it's easier for people who feel just completely paralyzed. Yeah. And powerless. And I know what it's like and I always tell people this because You know I was just four years ago dealing with this. And I can tell you that I was in Hawaii in, in Maui, standing at the top of M You, know Mount Holly Acala with my daughter, my youngest daughter, and my husband in July of 2019, which is just four years ago now.
Rebecca Zung (49m 56s): And we were on vacation and my daughter, we got up at Sunrise, which is beautiful. I don't know if you've ever been there and done that, but it's,
Travis Chappell (50m 4s): I've not, no, absolutely. I mean, I've been to Hawaii, but I've not climbed that
Rebecca Zung (50m 7s): Mountain. Okay. So beautiful. If you go up there at sunrise, it's like heaven on earth and gorgeous. I'm with people that I love the most on the planet. And my daughter who was 17 at the time is, oh mom, it's heaven on earth. It's so beautiful. And I'm like, yeah, it is. And all of a sudden, what am I thinking of of is this Narcissist popping into my mind? Hmm. And I had this aha moment. At that moment I thought, no.
Travis Chappell (50m 38s): Yeah,
Rebecca Zung (50m 39s): No, no. you do not get to be here.
Travis Chappell (50m 45s): Yeah. You can't invade my no. My moments with my people. Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (50m 51s): This is not happening. And at that moment, I had an aha moment. Yeah. I thought every moment I give this person I'm in victim mode. I said, I'm not allowing this anymore. So the person that walked up that mountain was not the same person that walked down that mo mountain. And I've never been the same. I said, I am not giving anymore. Yeah. So I said I'm gonna be in creation mode. And I walked down that mountain and I told her I'm out. And I decided to finish my Negotiation book, which was Negotiate like You Matter. And I put it out for endorsements.
Rebecca Zung (51m 35s): One of the people I wrote an asked for an endorsement for was Robert Shapiro, who I did not know. He wrote me back within, within an hour saying, call me. I was like, oh, okay.
Travis Chappell (51m 48s): Sweet.
Rebecca Zung (51m 49s): I called him, he offers to write the forward.
Travis Chappell (51m 54s): Wow. Awesome. Which
Rebecca Zung (51m 55s): He did. And You know magic started to happen. Somebody then told me that she had been a covert passive aggressive Narcissist, which I'd never heard that word ever, or that term ever. And I started doing all this research on it. I had already been the keynote speaker for the American Bar Association on Negotiation. Now I do. Okay. So I already knew a lot about Negotiation and So I was still flying back and forth to Florida for my practice part-time at that point. Okay. And So I started applying what I was learning about narcissism to my cases. And it was like I had discovered penicillin.
Rebecca Zung (52m 38s): Hmm. Now at that point,
Travis Chappell (52m 41s): Especially in those high net worth cases,
Rebecca Zung (52m 43s): In those high net worth cases,
Travis Chappell (52m 44s): Only be a fair amount of narcissists. Exactly.
Rebecca Zung (52m 46s): Exactly. But I always joke, I I moved to LA 'cause there's no narcissists here.
Travis Chappell (52m 51s): Yeah, right. Finally free at the
Rebecca Zung (52m 54s): Narcissist. Yeah, exactly.
Travis Chappell (52m 56s): Here in Los Angeles. Right.
Rebecca Zung (52m 58s): So So I then was also learning the YouTube, how to do YouTube. I was You know researching how to learn the algorithms. And I was also teaching myself how to do funnels, landing pages. I was You know learning everything from Russell Brunson. I was reading all of his books and how to do courses on ClickFunnels and things like that. So I was doing all of this in the fall of 2019. So it was like this whole confluence of events my whole life. I was still on call for extra. Okay. And So I was running over to their studios in Burbank at the time.
Rebecca Zung (53m 42s): Right. I feel like my whole life was like being set up for exactly what I'm doing now. Yeah. Right. And then did one video. I had 300 subscribers on YouTube at this point. And at that point I had done just some videos on how to Negotiate in general. 'cause I thought I was gonna do Negotiation in general on YouTube. I was doing videos on how to get a job, how to clothing color. Sure. Things like that. Like
Travis Chappell (54m 16s): Getting a raise or whatever. Getting
Rebecca Zung (54m 17s): A raise. I was getting like 30 views and they were like, my mom and her church friends,
Travis Chappell (54m 25s): Just like we all start on YouTube. Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (54m 27s): My mom's like, I watched all your videos.
Travis Chappell (54m 30s): Hey, thank you mom. Thanks for supporting.
Rebecca Zung (54m 33s): I got all my church friends to watch. I'm like, thank you so much. That was my 31st view. Yeah,
Travis Chappell (54m 39s): Exactly. It's my ideal audience for sure. Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (54m 42s): That's exactly who I need. So
Travis Chappell (54m 45s): We're gonna need a bigger church though.
Rebecca Zung (54m 48s): I know. And my father watched it. Okay, great. Yeah. Right. So I was like, okay. So then in January of 2020, I did one video on How to Negotiate with a Narcissist and I got 750 views.
Travis Chappell (55m 3s): Okay.
Rebecca Zung (55m 4s): And I'm like, okay,
Travis Chappell (55m 6s): Noticeable jump.
Rebecca Zung (55m 7s): Something's going on over here. Yeah. So I thought, okay, I'm gonna do a course on this. And I thought, I'm gonna do eight more videos and I'm gonna do a course. So I decided to have it go live on March 11th, 2020. Okay. I had no idea what's going on in the world at this point. I just picked the date. Yep. And I decided to use the acronym SLAY. I grabbed the intellectual property on it. I own the word SLAY, by the way.
Travis Chappell (55m 41s): Nice. That's a good word
Rebecca Zung (55m 42s): Down. Yeah. And I just You know, decided to go live with it on that day. And I had went live with the webinar three must Have Secrets to Communicating with a Narcissist Live webinar. I used You know Russell Brunson's Whole Perfect Webinar. Perfect webinar You know the whole thing. And that was You know I was live, I did it. And with 10 months I had a hundred something thousand subscribers on YouTube. By, by January of 2021, I had over a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube.
Rebecca Zung (56m 26s): Wow. And I had made You know 1.1 million in
Travis Chappell (56m 32s): Core sales
Rebecca Zung (56m 32s): Sale core sales on
Travis Chappell (56m 33s): Just from, on that. Just from free YouTube traffic.
Rebecca Zung (56m 36s): From YouTube traffic organically. Yeah. On that course.
Travis Chappell (56m 40s): Obviously hit a vein then,
Rebecca Zung (56m 41s): Right? Yeah. And it's a $500 course.
Travis Chappell (56m 44s): I was gonna ask the price point. Yeah. Yeah. So that, I mean, that's crazy. Yeah. So 2000 plus people Right. Jumped into the course just from
Rebecca Zung (56m 51s): Jumped into the course.
Travis Chappell (56m 52s): Yeah. So you, so you did YouTube video with just like,
Rebecca Zung (56m 57s): I lead
Travis Chappell (56m 57s): Magnet some value.
Rebecca Zung (56m 59s): I have a lead magnet, which is my crush, my Negotiation prep worksheet. Okay. Which is a 15 page ebook. It's a very substantial
Travis Chappell (57m 6s): Okay.
Rebecca Zung (57m 7s): Yeah. I So
Travis Chappell (57m 8s): I. So then you would drive them to that, and then on your email list you would say, I have a masterclass coming up sign up type thing.
Rebecca Zung (57m 14s): Yeah. I have a five email sequence. Okay. And then I have, now it's all Evergreen So, I've sold
Travis Chappell (57m 23s): Your web, your webinars Evergreen. Okay.
Rebecca Zung (57m 26s): So I have 200,000 on my email list now. Wow. And I have,
Travis Chappell (57m 32s): Is this still all organic? You still haven't I Yeah. Ventured into the paid ads world. I have,
Rebecca Zung (57m 38s): I have tried paid ads. I, I'm still, I feel like I'm limping along with that.
Travis Chappell (57m 43s): I mean, hey, if your organic's working that well, it's, well keep working on the organic stuff. I
Rebecca Zung (57m 49s): Mean, I, it, I have a guy who's a media buyer, but it's a challenge. I honestly, I find, but I did launch my master high conflict Negotiation certification program. Okay. Just a month ago. My very first webinar, I only put it out to my list. I had 1100 people sign up for it. And I had 120 calls booked. It's $5,000 course. And so I've done three so far. I have, I now have 10 salespeople and I have c, my c o O was TD Jake's C C O O for four years. Great. And I now have a head of sales and You know I have a full on business doing this now.
Rebecca Zung (58m 32s): Yeah. So it's, yeah. I've sold over 10,000 of my courses and Good for you.
Travis Chappell (58m 37s): It's
Rebecca Zung (58m 37s): Amazing. I have 40 million views on YouTube now. Isn't
Travis Chappell (58m 40s): It? Pretty awesome. How many good things can come from something that was so bad at the time. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You never thought You, know what I mean? Like when you realized it was probably like a, I've been wasting so much time and what a horrible experience and this is terrible. I can't believe this happened. And then that propelled you into this entire new journey and leg of your career where you get to sign your own paychecks, do what you want, when you want, and create, which is the thing that you like doing anyway. Right. I
Rebecca Zung (59m 15s): Love what I do now. I mean, I love it. And I'm telling you the, the people I just had my first live for my certification course because the certification is a mixture of online and some lives. Okay. And So I just got to meet the people who are in my live, the, the first wave of the people who are gonna be certified in my training. And oh my gosh, it's all people who've been very much impacted by my program You know. Yeah. And their stories. Oh my God. I mean, I literally just got the chills, like of impact that my program had on them, and now they want to turn around and become coaches.
Rebecca Zung (1h 0m 4s): Hmm. It's almost, it's so humbling. Yeah. Yeah. It's so much of a God thing. I mean, I really not just sound cheesy or corny or anything, but I truly believe that I'm just the vessel for
Travis Chappell (1h 0m 19s): Well you're making an impact, that's for sure. Making a big impact. So one more time, the u r L for your book. SLAY. The
Rebecca Zung (1h 0m 30s): SLAY. the Bully
Travis Chappell (1h 0m 31s): SLAY. the Bully dot com.
Rebecca Zung (1h 0m 32s): Dot com. SLAY the Bully dot com. Yes. And You know I start off my book talking about my own story of being bullied as a child on the playground and being voiceless. Yeah. And how, and I end the book by thinking the bullies, because I also now have a 5 0 1 C three. Okay. With Lynsi Snyder who owns In and Out. Oh really? Yeah. So I Am We're going to be providing legal Aid for people who can't afford Oh, legal fees. That's awesome. And You know, I feel like this is my purpose on this planet Yeah.
Rebecca Zung (1h 1m 13s): Is to help people who can't afford access to justice. And for people who Yeah. You know are voiceless.
Travis Chappell (1h 1m 21s): Sure, yeah. For people who wouldn't have been able to afford to pay you before. Yeah. Well, it's really cool that you've been able to figure out a way to help all of those people when one of the awesome things about creating content, having the podcast, having YouTube and everything else that you, everything else that you're doing, and now coming out with the book. So this, this has been awesome. REBECCA, thank you so much for coming on. SLAY the Bully dot com. Go pick up a copy of Rebecca's book before you forget. Go follow her on all the socials on YouTube follow Her podcast. Check out her show. I know that you're gonna get some awesome things from her and I mean, she's brilliant in Negotiation and all this other stuff, but she's also crushed at marketing and sales and built multiple businesses successfully. So I, highly recommend going, checking out some of her stuff. REBECCA, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.
Travis Chappell (1h 2m 2s): This has been a pleasure. Thank
Rebecca Zung (1h 2m 4s): You. Thank you. Of course.
Travis Chappell (1h 2m 6s): Pleasure too. That's it for today's episode. Thanks for spending some time with me and my friends. If you want to be better friends with me, then head over to Travis Chappell dot com slash team to subscribe to my free newsletter, your friend Travis, where I share what's on my mind about life, building a business, raising kids, being married, and anything else I would normally share with my close circle of friends. That's Travis Chappell dot com slash team. And my biggest ask of you, since I'm sharing my friends with you, is to share this episode with a friend of yours that hasn't listened to the show yet. And leave us a quick five star rating in Apple Podcasts and in Spotify, it would mean the world to us as it helps us make sure that this show continues to be more valuable to you. Thanks in advance, and I'll catch you on the next episode.